Hello, We've noticed since about early August (2003) that Verizon's Express Network (1XRTT) service has been dropping Telnet (port 23) and Secure Telnet (SSH, port 22) connections which go idle (no data is passed) for a little over 5 minutes. That is, if you open a Telnet or SSH session to a given site via Verizon's Express Network 1XRTT service (this is NOT via the "new" 3G service they offer in DC and San Diego, but I assume the problems will be the same on those higher speed networks), and after you connect you walk away from your computer for 5 minutes, whatever work you have started on the server side (the site you are connecting to) will be lost since the session will time out. Even if you have a ping program running to keep the 1XRTT connection alive (not really necessary but if you have a lot of data coming TO you and you don't send any data, a ping program in the background can help keep that sort of connection alive), the *individual SESSION* will hang and disconnect if no data is passed in that given *session*. So if you open two telnet connections to the same site, and after opening one you type nothing for 6 minutes, and on the second you type a few characters and/or have data coming back to you, the one with data will remain open and not "hang", whereas the first session where you typed nothing and no data went through will be hung after about 5 minutes and 15 seconds and you will not be able to type anything and need to re-log in (potentially losing any work you started in the given session). We've tried this with a variety of sites and providers, and the results are always the same. (You can test it yourself by telneting to our site, eg, use a DOS prompt (or whatever Telnet client you like), type "telenet interpage.net" (or 204.75.164.1) and log in as "guest" and do not use a password. You will be able to log in to a demo menu and if you don't type anything over your Verizon 1XRTT connection, the telnet session will hang after a little over 5 minutes.) Initially, we thought this was only a problem with ports 22 (SSH) and 23 (Telnet), since other ports which we tried, like port 25 (SMTP), stay open until *properly* closed by the the 1XRTT user and/or the remote site. We called them about this shortly after we noticed it, and although they have made an apparently earnest effort to fix it, but so far have not. Verizon/BAMS has agreed to let us out of our 2-year contract since this is a significant problem with their service which detriments our ability to utilize it; it was also not present when we signed up for it; we are not "mad" at them since the people in Bedminster who are working on it seem to be making an honest effort to get it working, and we will probably just get another CDPD account, which is a slower data service but has none of these "idle circuit" problems. (I'm still testing Sprint's 1XRTT service; if it works out well we will cancel without penalty our Verizon contract (assuming they can not fix this and the below problem in a week or so) and move over to Sprint, which, despite my dissatisfaction with their awful customer service (as compared the to general level of professionalism we see evidenced at BAMS -- and I don't mean Verizon aka. ex-GTE/Alltel; I mean the old Bell Atlantic Mobile people who (hopefully still) run the markets where we use the 1XRTT service the most), does seem to be able to provide an 1XRTT connection which does not hang or idle out after 5 minutes of inactivity in a given telnet or SSH session.) Today, however, I've noticed the same "idle timeout" ocurring with FTP -- but in this case, the Verizon 1XRTT Express Network service will time out a *running* FTP session which is *actively* passing data! (And BTW, like the Telnet and SSH issues, I tried the same FTP session with the same file and the same servers via Verizon/BAM's CDPD service and it worked flawlessly, albeit slower.) When you open an FTP session (via DOS command FTP, and FTP client, or some web based FTP command like ftp://site.com , etc.), you can connect just fine, do all the FTP commands, etc., and easily commence an upload or download. Once the UL/DL commences, however, you can time it for about 5 minutes, and then the Verizon 1XRTT service closes the connection and the transfer stops, even if you are still in mid-file and thus apparently can not upload or download a file which takes more than 5 minutes! I tried this on a number of files and servers, and the same thing happens each time. However, since I don't have FTP access to a decent sampling of sites on different backbones, I can't tell if this is just systemic with the sites I have tried or permeates their entire 1XRTT network. (Again, the same sites with the same files worked fine with BAM's CDPD service, so I am pretty sure it is BAM's error and they are screwing up FTP connections as well, but I'd be interested in obtaining some other sample points from other Verizon Express Network users before I call this in to them as well. ) Thus, if anyone else notices these "hangs" or premature closed connections via FTP (and/or with Telnet and SSH as well), please let me know so I can have some additional data points to provide to them. (The BAMS people in Beminster did some tests and on and are generally able to duplicate the results in terms on idle Telnet and SSH problems, but I'm not sure they will be able to do the same with FTP and want to make sure I am right about this before calling it in to them, so other independent tests and results would be appreciated.) Overall, despite their laudible efforts to correct these problems, none of them have been solved, and I'll repeat what I've said before: Irrespective of the higher speed of Verizon's 1XRTT Express Network, it is nowhere near ready to replace the functionality of their CDPD service and has significant dificiencies (which BAMS has verified on their end as well) so as to make their Express Network service unusable for most Internet applications other than Web browsing and POP/SMTP mail. I like the speed and the availability of support, but I certainly can not recommend the service until they fix these (and other?) IP problems. If I were a public service agency being urged to migrate to 1XRTT, I'd be very very worried about these service deficiencies (on the other hand, if it means the police can't look up my plate next time I'm stopped since their 1XRTT connection times out all the time, then hey, maybe it's not such a bad thing after all! :) ) I am pleased, however, that Verizon recognizes that their service is somewhat lacking and not what they promised, and gave us no problems when we asked to have the option to be let out of our contract even though we have a year left on it. (I can't begin to imagize the hell Sprint would give us in a similar situation! :( ) (On a positive note -- a number of the 1XRTT drops while moving, iterated at: http://www.wirelessnotes.org/verizon-and-express-network-drops , have been fixed, so at least there is some minor progress being made on that front...it is too bad the the Telnet, SSH, and now potentially FTP "idle timeouts" will force us to drop Verizon before they get a chance to make more improvements to their service dropping in key locations. ) Thanks in advance for any reports! Regards, -Doug http://www.interpage.net +1 (510) 315-2750 @interpage.net (This post and SID list are also available at http://www.wirelessnotes.org)